I Think Everybody Brings Gifts
Engo Dohi Michael Jackson
Engo Michael Jackson is one of the few priests ordained by Jun Po Roshi who has experience leading an eight day sesshin in the role of the Tanto - the spiritual leader of the sesshin,. He has mastered all of the retreat roles through his extensive commitment to the Jun Po Roshi’s dharma. He continues to lead through the Virtual Zendo, serve as a primary teacher in the clergy training at Dragon Heart Dharma, and as a board member at Shining Bright Lotus Meditation Society. He continues to raise his two boys in Huntington Beach, CA. I caught up with Engo on zoom a few weeks ago.
Ekai: When did you first start to practice with Jun Po Roshi?
Engo: I first met Jun Po Roshi in September of 2009 at the Sonoma Mountain Zen Center in Northern California. I had been to a ManKind Project retreat in 2007 and through my local men's group several others were heading up to this retreat in Sonoma. So I went. I had been dabbling off and on reading and practicing meditation for decades and I always kind of carried with me a story that when you're ready, the teacher will appear. I had been frustrated, wondering why my teacher hadn’t showed up. Maybe I just wasn't quite as ready as I thought. So I joined this sesshin which whipped my butt pretty good. When I sat down with Jun Po in dokusan, he asked “How’s it going? And I said, “Oh, it's hard.” He leaned in warmly with his eyes and said, “Ok, what part?” He was really inquiring about what was hard, and it just blew me open. I just started laughing. And the laughter came out of him. We just sat and laughed and laughed.
I loved this teaching. I loved the Mondo. It was a quick explanation of the whole story to me. It didn't bring me to enlightenment suddenly, but it's certainly explained the whole story. I said to him, “okay, so what should I do. I'm in.” He said, “come to every session for the next three years. That'll be a good down payment.” I proceeded to go to every sesshin for four years with him. Then I started having kids and things changed. I did benefit hugely from sitting probably 25 to 30 sessions with him over the four years that I knew him.
Ekai: Had you studied Buddhism or practiced before this?
Engo: I could go back to my Catholic origins. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I was an altar boy until I was 18 years old when I moved off to go to UCLA. I pretty much discarded Catholicism at that point. It just had too many unanswered questions. When I walked away I never walked away from God or spirituality or the curiosity that there's something going on here. But I was going to college and getting highly educated. I did have other informal good teachers in my life and one was my sister's fiancé. I asked him what I should read. He suggested Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. That simple book set a trajectory for my life. It opened something up, and I just started reading and I just couldn't get enough from the books. So it was me practicing, reading and learning.
Ekai: What was it about Mondo Zen that so resonated?
Engo: It was the overall teachings I liked. Since there was a lot of guilt, shame, eternal damnation, sin, and all these things, in my Catholicism, I appreciated the Buddha saying don't trust teachers, teachings and institutions. Try it on yourself. And Jun Po always insisted that if you don't understand something, ask a question. Buddhism basically believes that fundamentally, ignorance is the issue, not sin. You just don't know any better. How can you be expected to do any different? That's what really resonated for me. Mondo Zen more than anything, is just a really good encapsulation Interestingly, I have so much greater appreciation and understanding of my Catholic upbringing now seeing through Buddhist eyes.
Ekai: Sounds like Buddhism allows you to feel at home with your spirituality.
Engo: Yeah, it was welcoming as opposed to a threatening. It is ‘come on, in, sit down and learn and practice’. We can point you in a direction. We can't do it for you. It doesn't matter how many times you fail and come up short. Come again.
Ekai: I appreciate the idea that it's my own work to be on the path. So you were on lots of retreats and you ended up being a teacher, how did that happen?
Engo: It was interesting because I was going to so many sessions with Jun Po and I'm really observant. So when I'm sitting there meditating, I'm observing every single movement and learning what every person is doing. If I were to go to Japan today, I could probably go to one of their monasteries and within a week, I would have their whole system figured out. It's just what I do. It's how my brain works. So Jun Po quickly had me teaching others. We didn't have a home monastery, we were always going and renting places and putting on week long seshins. So we were reinventing the wheel every single time. He quickly had me teaching because I was there every single sesshin. I was even teaching priests.
People could see from my robes that I was a beginner. I hadn’t taken jukai let alone be ordained. People were like “where are your priests robes?” I would say “I'm not a priest.” I was teaching because I knew how to run sesshins. I have given my commitment. I felt like I'll be ordain at the end of my three years. That is how it actually happened in 2013., I finally went ahead and took my step and formal ordained as a Hollow Bones priest. But really, you don't need to be a priest or anyone to teach you. You just have to have the knowledge. I think everybody brings gifts. We take in what we can learn from each other. Everyone's a teacher. Jun Po even said “I'm not your teacher, I just share a teaching.” Everyone's a teacher, and everyone is a student.
Ekai: Thank you Engo. You also starting meditating on line early in the morning.
Engo: I think that was about 2013, right about the time when I ordained. I just started offering online meditation at 5am here on the West Coast. Jun Po said I was very clever. He felt I was going to upset things but I might as well try it. I'll tell you the first many years, I often can't tell how many weeks and months I sat alone. An occasional person would pop in. Fortunately, Tozan and Kevala came and joined me fairly regularly. Now, beautifully, it has evolved and the Virtual Zendo at Hollow Bones Zen averages 12 to 20 people every morning. We five different hosts priests leading Monday through Friday. I used to do it seven days a week.
Ekai: It became Virtual Zendo because of COVID. It was perfect that you were already doing it. So it was easy to gear it up to include a variety of leadership. This is something that you were very comfortable with. It's morphed a little bit. You were basically just meditating. Now it's has a bit more checking in and teachings and things like that.
Engo: Actually, that was your contribution to the Virtual Zendo. It used to be that not a word was spoken. People wouldn't log in and the clappers would clap, the bell would ring, meditation would start, the bell would ring, meditation ended, clappers. Maybe there was a wave of the hand and the video turned off. And that was it. And then you said that community building needs for people to say a few words for connection, not just meditation. At first I was a little resistant to it. But it is going beautifully. People love that connection. Me, I kind of miss the silence. But that was because that was what I was really coming for. Now I really do appreciate the check-ins. And it's got a whole life of its own. It's not really just meditation, everybody isn't there for Zen. They're there to meditate, practice, learn, and connect.
Ekai: How do you feel Mondo Zen and Mondo Facilitation has evolved?
Ekai: In a couple of ways. The first and most obvious one will make people chuckle who were around when Jun Po was still with us, is we stopped rewriting the Mondo Manual. Jun Po was open, because he was so passionate about making sure that the articulation was so crystal clear, you could just read the manual and get the download. I also really appreciate the development of some training for the Mondo Facilitators. With Jun Po you basically went through and received Mondo Facilitation, and at the end of that retreat, he was like, great, “go out and take it to the world.” Well, okay. For some of us the more conservative senior students, we try and caution people to just take it easy and just check in and simply read the manual. Don't go too crazy because some people really didn't necessarily have the skills for really doing Mondo.
I think we do a much better job of really trying to weed out and show people just where they were in their skills to share Mondo Facilitation. I think the Mondo Facilitators Program has taken a step in the right direction, with the right intention to make sure we share this teaching in the best possible way.
Ekai: Thank you. Where do you see us going? Do you see a next step for these teachings?
For Mondo Facilitation to me should follow along the lines of coaching. We've got all these life coaches and all these people out in the world helping people with their spirituality, helping people with their economic world. For me, that's what Mondo Zen Facilitation ought to be. Let me share this teaching with you, it's not going to bring you to enlightenment. It's going to point out what we mean by enlightenment. Let me take you through this process as a coach, and then we can engage in a deeper conversation about Buddhism. It's a step, it's a piece, but it's not the end all. I think coaching would be the closest parallel that I would put to Mondo Facilitation.
Ekai: Last question, any final share about Jun Po Roshi.
Engo: He touched me deeply. I always appreciate looking into hi eyes. Looking at his pupils. I could see the universe there. There was a depth in his pupil that just penetrated. And it just blew me away. There was a warmth in there even with all of his shortcomings and his sharp edges. In those eyes and in his whole spirit he just pulled me right in.
Ekai: What a delightful share! Thank you for taking the time to meet with me
Engo: You're very welcome. Thank you.